Embed
by GRITtv was published on January 28th, 2009
If Israel in Gaza and the United States, through its use of torture in Iraq and elsewhere, have committed war crimes, what can be done?
Ret. General James Cullen, Israeli Refusenik Haggai Matar, Matthew Alexander, the author of How to Break a Terrorist, and Katherine Gallagher of the Center for Constitutional Rights on prosecuting war crimes.
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From Al Jazeera:
There is a world of difference between establishing that war crimes have been committed, and then holding those responsible to account, says Mark S Ellis, the executive director of the International Bar Association (IBA).
By GRITtv on January 28th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Israel has also formed a war crimes defense team!
By Anonymous on January 28th, 2009 at 11:50 am
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.a…..id=3510203
“The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture Manfred Nowak in an interview on Monday told CNN that the international body had enough evidence to prosecute Rumsfeld for his direct authorization of tortures at US detention centers in 2002.”
By GRITtv on January 28th, 2009 at 11:53 am
For the US to have based its interrogation techniques on the SERE-Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape-program is the height of hubris. SERE was ment to give personnel who might be captured(I had to take SERE prior to being sent to Vietnam and again before I went to Korea)an idea of what might take place so that they would not be surprised. One thing that SERE taught is that under torture everyone talks, so plan your story ahead of time. The fact that the bush administration decided to use this as a basis for american interrogations shows a decided lack of humanity and compassion as well as empathy. IOW, members of the fighting 101st keyboarders, a bunch of juveniles living in their parents basements, were most likely the ones who decided on this policy. Their total lack of understanding about what the SERE program is and why we have it is mind boggling
By timr on January 28th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Thanks for the info on SERE. Good point.
By GRITtv on January 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
of course we have to prosecute these war criminals
the main reason is they’ve committed the same crimes before and got away with it, cheney rumsfeld used the exact same game plany they used to undermine nixon’s detante, they used the same game plan to sell our weapons to the terrorists we fight today
if we do not bring them to justice they WILL commit these crimes again and just as we see, each time they do it the damage is exponentially greater then the last
By perris on January 28th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I just posted this on the Guardian under another screenname.
I appreciate the emphasis on how governments who do malignant things don’t represent the will of the peoples they serve so often.
I am grateful to have a website with electic views so I can explore my thoughts and feelings about the present Gaza crisis. I have read that there are more objections to the Israeli leadership’s behaviors among the Israeli citizens and US citizenry itself than my US Congress
I am confounded by the choices of Israel but even more by the US Congress, our political class, ignoring the grave judgments of Amnesty Intl, Intl Red Cross, UN, of crimes against humanity. Instead of being an honest broker for peace, the Congress declared Israel’s leadership’s choices 100% okay.
When the Gaza attacks began Rep. Howard Berman D. of Calif. insisted the Congress “formally” back the Israeli actions. Senators Reid and McConnell led the confirmation in the Senate. It passed in the Senate 100%, in the House, 435 supported it, 5 against, 20 voted present. What incredible agreement.
Glenn Greenwald reported that polls on how US citizens feel about our appropriate degree of involvement was according to Univ. of Maryland 71% wanting US not to take sides in this conflict. A Rasmussen study in Jan, went 41-44% about support for Israel and a poll among Democrats showed 55% against to 31%. Clearly the political class is not representing its constituents.
The more I read about my country’s overt and covert meddling in the affairs of other countries the more I understand anger and distrust of us. And the profound callousness of Israel and US leaderships to the massive humanitarian horrors and the US providing ever more deadly weaponry.
A new US weapon was used, DIME “dense inert metal explosives,” Powerful blasts within small areas, crushes the whole limb not just parts, no longer knife-like cuts, but uses a nuclear-like fusion process
It has been reported we provided phosphorous which was illegally used in populated areas on civilians. Times of London reports it adheres to flesh, its flames continue for 5 to 10 minutes often penetrating to the bone.
For the air strikes, assaults that necessarily include civilians, 2300 air strikes total, 226 US supplied F-16s were used. And US smart bombs penetrating 3 feet of steel reinforced concrete.
The casualties for the Israelis: a number of damaged buildings, 13 dead, including 3 civiians and 3 soldiers from friendly fire. Yes, any number of deaths is tragic.
The latest statistics for the Gazans: 1400 dead, 5500 wounded, hundreds of children dead (over 400), 4-5000 homes destroyed, 20,000 homes damaged, 14% of all buildings, 50 UN facilities, 21 medical buildings, 1500 factories, $2 bn damage on land 25 miles long, 7.5 miles wide. Farms bombed out, or swamped with sewage. Traumatized children. 50,000 people malnourished. Destroyed mosques, a university, most govt buildings, courts, 25 schools, 20 ambulances, bridges, 10 electricity generating stations, sewage lines, 1500 factories, 100,000 Palestinians into refugeedom.
Despite the refusal to allow journalists in, there were horrifying anecdotal stories such as 40 people in UN shelter killed. Emaciated children found too weak to stand up, beside corpses of their parents. How can this kind of massacre be defended?
So, the country that brought us the Iraq War is asserting Israeli neocons’ devastation should be regarded as righteous. Minimizing the above described bloodbath. Have we learned nothing from our mistakes? Iraq?
And according to Article 2 of Geneva Convention on Genocide, 3 requirements of such a crime seem to fit this situation: 1) killing members of a group, 2) causing serious bodily and mental harm to members of a group, 3) deliberately inflicting on a group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.
I have heard of Hamas savagery in the past. Also, I know the chronic shooting of rockets by Hamas was a nightmare. But the blockade was provocative to say the least. I am not an apologist for Hamas. But to punish the Gazans for voting for Hamas against what sounds like a corrupt and weak Abbas regime is illegitimate. And our collusion is crazymaking and more of the same imperially exploitive and destructive path. Obama is a member of this groupthinking political class, enabled by corporate media.
Thanks if you waded through all this. I have started calling my Congress persons to protest, but it seems sadly futile.
***
By libbyliberal on January 28th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Israel leaves Gaza unilateraly and what is the response? 6000 rockets are fired into Israeli border towns over the period of the last few years with very little in the way of response from Israel – they showed a lot of restraint. Imagine if 6000 rockets were fired into your hometown. Finally Israel said ‘enough is enough’ and launched the Gaza operation.
Hamas hides among the civilian population using it as human shields, they store weapons in peoples homes and religious institutions. They are the ones to blame for any civilian casualties because they intentionally put the civilian population at risk for there own gain. It is Hamas that should be the charged with war crimes. Although there is no doubt innocent civilians were killed unintentionally by Israeli forces the final figures have yet to be independently determined. Israel claims that at least 2/3 of the dead were armed gunman from Hamas and other Jihad organizations. We all remember the so called Jenin ‘massacre’ were initial palestinian figures had 1500 dead. In the end it was determined that in fact about 50 were killed, 90% of them gunmen.
Hamas has proven time and again through its actions that it is a terrorist organization. They encourage and glorify suicide bombers and cheered the 9-11 attacks. They are funded by Iran, oppose a 2 state solution and do not recognize the right of Israel to exist. When they took over Gaza they did not try to make the best of it, and create a peaceful territory. Instead it became a launching pad for rockets and bombs ruled by a taliban style group – gun toting gangs of Islamic fundamentalists. They spent their money on rockets and road side bombs instead of trying to improve the life of their people.
Israel did not go half way around the world to fight a war as the US has done in Afganistan, or the British did in Falklands. They are fighting for their survival right on their own border and protecting their own citizens from daily rocket and morter attacks.
The war criminals are the Hamas terrorist organization.
Gazans are free to vote for who they want, but there are consequences for voting for a Hamas government, as there were consequences for Germany when they voted for Hitler.
If you vote for a government who chooses to fire 6000 rockets into their neighbor’s territory, you should be prepared for a response and there’s no rational explanation for being understanding of a group that wants to impose a Taliban-style caliphate upon the world.
You seem to imply that because Gaza/Hamas suffered more damage and casualties than Israel that somehow that makes Israel’s actions wrong. It would be like saying that because in WW2 Germany suffered many more casualties and much more damage (US territory was never even attacked by Germany) than the US did, that somehow that makes the US actions in WW2 wrong. Nobody would ever say that and the logic that war should be ‘even steven’ only seems to apply to Israel.
Seventy-one percent of respondents to a 2008 US Gallup poll held a favorable opinion of Israel, while only 14% had a similar opinion of the Palestinian Authority.
On the question of sympathies, 59% said told Gallup their sympathies were more with the Israelis, while just 17% said they were sympathetic with the Palestinians. This is one of the highest levels of support for Israel in the long history of the question.
Clearly the US Congress is representing its constituents and did the right thing when they stood up for their long time ally Israel and against Hamas – a terrorist organization that handed out candy after 9-11 to celebrate the death of innocent Americans.
By tennisman on January 29th, 2009 at 4:33 am
Launching unguided rockets over the border is a war crime.
Deploying a full-scale military assault with bombs, missiles, and shells launched by jets, helicopters, tanks, and drones against a tiny densely populated area from which none of the civilian population can flee is a much worse war crime.
Calling Israel’s assault on Gaza “self-defense” is as wrong as the claim that the U.S. invasion of Iraq was “self-defense”. It drains all meaning from the term.
Equating this one-sided slaughter to the United States’ war against Germany, which at the time was one of the world’s greatest military powers, is obscene.
By Nell on January 29th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
tennisman … no empathy for deaths and woundings and starving of fellow human beings?
By libbyliberal on January 30th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Have you had 6000 rockets fired at your hometown over the past several years ? Then perhaps you could talk about what is appropriate self defence.
I was not equating the US war against Germany to this conflict. I was pointing out that war in general is not ‘even steven’. The US and its allies deployed overwhelming force against Germany/Japan – they used every weapon at their disposal – inlcuding nuclear bombs, which the other side did not have.
In the fight against the Taliban/Al Queda in Afghanistan the US is doing the same – using every sophisticated weapon in their arsenal to defeat the Taliban. The taliban have none of these types of weapons. Under your logic the US response in Afghanistan should be to use road side bombs, intentionally target civilians and employ suicide bombers – then their response with be the same as the Taliban. It makes no sense.
Proportionality does not require that a nation’s use of force be somehow “equal” to the force to which it is responding. What proportionality requires is that the use of force be limited to the minimum amount required to achieve military goals.
The claim that Israel has violated the principle of proportionality — by killing more Hamas terrorists than the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets — is absurd. First, there is no legal equivalence between the deliberate killing of innocent civilians and the deliberate killings of Hamas combatants. Under the laws of war, any number of combatants can be killed to prevent the killing of even one innocent civilian.
Israel is not deliberately killing non-combatants. In addition, its conduct falls within the constraints of proportionality. Insofar as stopping rocket attacks on its citizens is a worthy end, it is permissible for Israel to use a large degree of force to stop Hamas, as long as the force is intended to stop Hamas (and not, for example, intended to kill non-combatants.)
The argument that the fact that the rockets Hamas launches have so far killed few civilians does not really matter: it is the risk the rockets pose to civilians that makes Israel’s use of force justified.
One can debate whether Israel’s tactics will stop Hamas. Perhaps more force is needed, rather than less. But the argument that Israel must be condemned simply because it has recently killed more people than Hamas is a non-starter.
By tennisman on January 30th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Yes I do have a lot of empathy for the people of Gaza and it is very sad situation. Anytime an innocent person is killed or is suffering it is a terrible thing. On the Israeli side, 750,000 citizens have been living in fear, ducking under under cars and running into shelters Hamas rockets and morters are not fired at any military targets – but are indiscrimately fired into cities and towns, schools, businesses and shopping malls.
My point was that it is Hamas that deserves much of the blame for what has gone on and that laying all the blame on Israel is just not fair.
If Israel wanted to level and destroy Gaza they could do it in 5 minutes. They didnt even use 1% of their military power in this recent conflict.
Unlike the enemy they are fighting, they do not intentionally target civilians, although because of the way Hamas operates among the civilian population, civilians were indeed killed.
In the same few weeks of the Gaza conflict, over 200 innocent civilians were intentionally killed in Iraq – moslems killing moslems, in suicide bomb attacks. Note a single arab country protested that, and the world said nothing about it. Over 900 civilians were intentionally killed in fighting in the Congo this past month – the international community has largely been silent.
It is this double standard, this intense focus on Israel to the exclusion of all others, that seems troubling to me.
By tennisman on January 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
tennisman … thank you for that acknowledgment. And I am new to the REAL history of the world, having been drinking biased kool-aid or being sadly indifferent for a long time.
BUT, saying Israel could destroy Gaza in 5 minutes … as some kind of indication of their restraint confounds me.
Ends don’t justify the means.
I am sorry for the primarily psychological suffering of the Israelis… and how sad that this was not addressed by the world. I feel it was exploited as a tool to justify a strategic agenda on Israel’s part to impart grave disabling harm to an entire people.
What do you say of the mass starvation conditions perpetrated by Israel blockade in which the rockets were a protest?
The gargantuan might and cruelty of the US-supplied weaponry … can you not see the horrifying imbalance here?
There are avenues of diplomacy. It seems Israel and the US use shock and awe to establish security in the world. Sadly this is promoting our long term insecurity, creating vengeful radicalism, whereupon our countries can justify further “demonization” and amoral behavior.
By libbyliberal on January 30th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
It is not ‘pyschological’ suffering – it is physical suffering when 6000 missiles rain down on their cities and suicide bombers are sent to blow up buses and coffee shops.
There is no mass starvation going on in Gaza and once again you are ignoring the Egyptian – Gaza border which Israel does not control. Why are you not taking Egypt, the palestinian’s arab brothers, to task for closing the Egyptian border with Gaza . Why is it only Israel you attack ?
The border closures are the result of the bloody and violent Hamas coup in Gaza when they violently and illegally removed Fatah but humanitarian aid still gets through – at least on the Israeli side.
When has war ever been fought ‘even steven’ as you suggest it should be. You fight a war to win, not to be ‘even’ with your enemy. I guess the Allies should not have used overwhelming manpower and force to defeat Germany – it just was not fair to Germany to have to fight all those allied countries with all those soldiers and weapons. That logic is absurd.
By tennisman on January 31st, 2009 at 7:22 pm