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	<title>Comments on: The F Word: So Much For Alternative Energy . . .</title>
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	<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/</link>
	<description>Cultivating a Better Conversation</description>
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		<title>By: begreen</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-358</link>
		<dc:creator>begreen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 07:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-358</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;many of the executives behind the mega-conglomerate wind corporations trying to pillage wildlife habitat on public lands are the same “executive oil and corporate” criminals.  putting a green cape on does not constitute regard for our natural world - especially when the same corrupt exploitation of the public interest is used as a new vehicle for their new ‘investment’ - i support wind and solar 100% - i support it in my backyard and on my rooftop to power my house and my neighborhood.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;it is fine to criticize bush for his hypocrisy at citing environmental laws as a reason not to employ solar smack dab in endangered species habitat - it is fine because he’s green-lighting the usurpation of those same laws to rubber-stamp oil &amp; gas leasing on public lands.  but the regulations are not bad — in fact, i’d posit that bush was citing them with solar to frame them as bad - something he and the republicans have been trying to do for years.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>many of the executives behind the mega-conglomerate wind corporations trying to pillage wildlife habitat on public lands are the same “executive oil and corporate” criminals.  putting a green cape on does not constitute regard for our natural world &#8211; especially when the same corrupt exploitation of the public interest is used as a new vehicle for their new ‘investment’ &#8211; i support wind and solar 100% &#8211; i support it in my backyard and on my rooftop to power my house and my neighborhood.</p>
<p>it is fine to criticize bush for his hypocrisy at citing environmental laws as a reason not to employ solar smack dab in endangered species habitat &#8211; it is fine because he’s green-lighting the usurpation of those same laws to rubber-stamp oil &amp; gas leasing on public lands.  but the regulations are not bad — in fact, i’d posit that bush was citing them with solar to frame them as bad &#8211; something he and the republicans have been trying to do for years.</p>
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		<title>By: begreen</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-357</link>
		<dc:creator>begreen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-357</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;this is what I’m talking about - the problem isn’t just production technology, it’s the speculation and centralization of production which hopes to externalize production costs onto the public — it may be (or may not be) cheaper to develop on public land because we lease are public lands to industry for ridiculously below market value (subsidy).  Locals may get a few jobs - but all the wealth is sucked out to investors rather than maintained in the communities (prospective wind developers want to put blades in ID on Brown’s Bench - but the company is offshore - the money goes international) — that’s our public lands being leased by foreigners to generate wealth for foreigners.  The energy from the blades in Idaho gets piped to Las Vegas — LAS VEGAS.  This idea that our energy problem is uniquely about inadequate production would be silly if it weren’t tragic.  Does anyone know how much energy is WASTED just as a matter of the loss over the lines from ID to Vegas ?  It’s a bunch !  Does anyone know how much energy is WASTED in VEGAS ?  It’s a bunch ! Solution : Unscrew every 20th lightbulb on the exterior of every other casino.  Solution : Use the energy locally - less transit = less loss.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is to say nothing of the fact that legitimate renewable outfits don’t look to lease public lands - if you’re investing in an alternative energy utility that is speculating to lease on public lands — PULL YOUR INVESTMENT !  The players that know what they’re doing know about NEPA, they know about the ESA (which WILL become a problem with leasing public lands in the West when sage grouse, pygmy rabbit, etc. get listed), they know about the Antiquities Act, and any number of other laws and they know that trying to fight these things is money in the toilet - it’s more secure an investment for stockholders to lease private lands - private lands enjoy private property rights less complicated by regulation than public lands - and private lands enjoy more wealth kept in the communities as locals get the money from leasing - this is an easier sell for investors who want to convince local governments to support their development.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Look - Bush isn’t doing this for the right reasons - but by doing it, he’s got the left all up in arms about what the radical right has been trying to destroy for decades (think Sagebrush Rebellion) - he’s got progressives thinking environmental laws are bad - that it’s too much red tape.  These environmental laws (especially NEPA) are what give the public oversight (and by extension/in addition ~ judicial oversight) over developments on our public lands that do potential harm to the values that we care about - we need those activists on the ground who know what’s going on with their local landscapes to have that leverage if we want to maintain wild places and wildlife - especially in a warming world.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I wrote something &lt;a href=&quot;http://wolves.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/global-warming-prompts-doubt-about-wildlife-conservation-in-the-west/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;over here&lt;/a&gt; about how global warming is being spun by Bush with regard to wildlife management.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://wolves.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/global-warming-prompts-doubt-about-wildlife-conservation-in-the-west/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Global warming prompts doubt about wildlife conservation in the West&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They know they’ve lost the battle over whether global warming exists - now they’re moving to frame it such that they get their agenda anyway.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is what I’m talking about &#8211; the problem isn’t just production technology, it’s the speculation and centralization of production which hopes to externalize production costs onto the public — it may be (or may not be) cheaper to develop on public land because we lease are public lands to industry for ridiculously below market value (subsidy).  Locals may get a few jobs &#8211; but all the wealth is sucked out to investors rather than maintained in the communities (prospective wind developers want to put blades in ID on Brown’s Bench &#8211; but the company is offshore &#8211; the money goes international) — that’s our public lands being leased by foreigners to generate wealth for foreigners.  The energy from the blades in Idaho gets piped to Las Vegas — LAS VEGAS.  This idea that our energy problem is uniquely about inadequate production would be silly if it weren’t tragic.  Does anyone know how much energy is WASTED just as a matter of the loss over the lines from ID to Vegas ?  It’s a bunch !  Does anyone know how much energy is WASTED in VEGAS ?  It’s a bunch ! Solution : Unscrew every 20th lightbulb on the exterior of every other casino.  Solution : Use the energy locally &#8211; less transit = less loss.  </p>
<p>This is to say nothing of the fact that legitimate renewable outfits don’t look to lease public lands &#8211; if you’re investing in an alternative energy utility that is speculating to lease on public lands — PULL YOUR INVESTMENT !  The players that know what they’re doing know about NEPA, they know about the ESA (which WILL become a problem with leasing public lands in the West when sage grouse, pygmy rabbit, etc. get listed), they know about the Antiquities Act, and any number of other laws and they know that trying to fight these things is money in the toilet &#8211; it’s more secure an investment for stockholders to lease private lands &#8211; private lands enjoy private property rights less complicated by regulation than public lands &#8211; and private lands enjoy more wealth kept in the communities as locals get the money from leasing &#8211; this is an easier sell for investors who want to convince local governments to support their development.</p>
<p>Look &#8211; Bush isn’t doing this for the right reasons &#8211; but by doing it, he’s got the left all up in arms about what the radical right has been trying to destroy for decades (think Sagebrush Rebellion) &#8211; he’s got progressives thinking environmental laws are bad &#8211; that it’s too much red tape.  These environmental laws (especially NEPA) are what give the public oversight (and by extension/in addition ~ judicial oversight) over developments on our public lands that do potential harm to the values that we care about &#8211; we need those activists on the ground who know what’s going on with their local landscapes to have that leverage if we want to maintain wild places and wildlife &#8211; especially in a warming world.</p>
<p>I wrote something <a href="http://wolves.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/global-warming-prompts-doubt-about-wildlife-conservation-in-the-west/" rel="nofollow">over here</a> about how global warming is being spun by Bush with regard to wildlife management.  </p>
<p><a href="http://wolves.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/global-warming-prompts-doubt-about-wildlife-conservation-in-the-west/" rel="nofollow">Global warming prompts doubt about wildlife conservation in the West</a></p>
<p>They know they’ve lost the battle over whether global warming exists &#8211; now they’re moving to frame it such that they get their agenda anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: ofw9</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-356</link>
		<dc:creator>ofw9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-356</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You demonstrate your ignorance of public lands management, not surprising for a person living in the big city. Among other things involved in permitting (as in issuing a permit) a proposed activity on public land, Public land management agencies are required by law to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) of 1969, and the American Antiquities Act of 1906. This is typically very involved and is always time consuming. The Bush/Cheny regime has essentially mandated that the BLM prioritize gas and oil permitting. Because of budget cuts the BLM (and other land management agencies) have almost impossible workloads, and they would not likely be able to comply with permitting requirements for solar or wind electrical facilities by 2010. So really the moratorium on permitting solar facilities is how Bush forces the BLM to concentrate on the backlog of oil and gas permitting, which has come about as a result of policy decisions by the B/C Regime.&lt;br /&gt;
Also, there is plenty of private land on which solar electrical generating facilities could be located, and I suspect there are plenty of landowners who would be willing to lease some of their otherwise unproductive desert land for the purpose.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You demonstrate your ignorance of public lands management, not surprising for a person living in the big city. Among other things involved in permitting (as in issuing a permit) a proposed activity on public land, Public land management agencies are required by law to comply with the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) of 1969, and the American Antiquities Act of 1906. This is typically very involved and is always time consuming. The Bush/Cheny regime has essentially mandated that the BLM prioritize gas and oil permitting. Because of budget cuts the BLM (and other land management agencies) have almost impossible workloads, and they would not likely be able to comply with permitting requirements for solar or wind electrical facilities by 2010. So really the moratorium on permitting solar facilities is how Bush forces the BLM to concentrate on the backlog of oil and gas permitting, which has come about as a result of policy decisions by the B/C Regime.<br />
Also, there is plenty of private land on which solar electrical generating facilities could be located, and I suspect there are plenty of landowners who would be willing to lease some of their otherwise unproductive desert land for the purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-355</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-355</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;executive oil and corporate treason……….&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>executive oil and corporate treason……….</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-354</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 09:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-354</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;try 35 years……………….&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>try 35 years……………….</p>
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		<title>By: begreen</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-353</link>
		<dc:creator>begreen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 04:04:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-353</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;the going rate for marginal ag lands permitted for renewables was $10,000 / acre last I checked (a wind guy i’m buddies with deals with these things) — that’s $10,000 / acre more than farmers and rural folk are getting now for that land.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the going rate for marginal ag lands permitted for renewables was $10,000 / acre last I checked (a wind guy i’m buddies with deals with these things) — that’s $10,000 / acre more than farmers and rural folk are getting now for that land.</p>
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		<title>By: begreen</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-352</link>
		<dc:creator>begreen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 04:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-352</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;not suggesting that oil &amp; gas is ok - in fact, i’ve worked to STOP its development on public lands (sage grouse listing) nor that solar and wind are inherently not green — just that we shouldn’t develop this technology on critical wildlife habitat - that’s what proponents of centralized energy production and privatization of public lands want — instead, i’m suggesting that PLANNING and management matter - there are plenty of marginal ag lands no longer in production adjacent to the very high winds lands proposed — in Idaho for example, a wind farm is being proposed on public land to accomodate LAS VEGAS demand — much of the energy produced on public lands, cutting into critical wildlife habitat will be lost  - IN TRANSIT - over transmission lines, to keep vegas wasting energy on exterior lighting of casinos —- THAT’S NOT GREEN - no matter what production technology is employed.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bush’s rejection of solar panels and wind is not done in good faith — it’s a framing issue — but there are reasons to be critical, and reasons to encourage public oversight.  BUSH IS NOT DOING IT FOR THESE JUST REASONS — especially when oil &amp; gas is being rubber-stamped all over the place.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;we need to be wise with where and how we develop renewables — simply changing technology will not solve our problems.  wind farms on endangered species habitat is no more green than oil &amp; gas or livestock grazing on the same critical habitat — it may be somewhat better — but there are alternatives - plenty of marginal ag lands all over the west NOT BEING USED that are trashed beyond restoration and have the same generation potential as public lands.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>not suggesting that oil &amp; gas is ok &#8211; in fact, i’ve worked to STOP its development on public lands (sage grouse listing) nor that solar and wind are inherently not green — just that we shouldn’t develop this technology on critical wildlife habitat &#8211; that’s what proponents of centralized energy production and privatization of public lands want — instead, i’m suggesting that PLANNING and management matter &#8211; there are plenty of marginal ag lands no longer in production adjacent to the very high winds lands proposed — in Idaho for example, a wind farm is being proposed on public land to accomodate LAS VEGAS demand — much of the energy produced on public lands, cutting into critical wildlife habitat will be lost  &#8211; IN TRANSIT &#8211; over transmission lines, to keep vegas wasting energy on exterior lighting of casinos —- THAT’S NOT GREEN &#8211; no matter what production technology is employed.  </p>
<p>Bush’s rejection of solar panels and wind is not done in good faith — it’s a framing issue — but there are reasons to be critical, and reasons to encourage public oversight.  BUSH IS NOT DOING IT FOR THESE JUST REASONS — especially when oil &amp; gas is being rubber-stamped all over the place.</p>
<p>we need to be wise with where and how we develop renewables — simply changing technology will not solve our problems.  wind farms on endangered species habitat is no more green than oil &amp; gas or livestock grazing on the same critical habitat — it may be somewhat better — but there are alternatives &#8211; plenty of marginal ag lands all over the west NOT BEING USED that are trashed beyond restoration and have the same generation potential as public lands.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura Flanders</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-351</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Flanders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 03:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-351</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ohmigoodness…. what a VISUAL….I knew it was bad but… so much for “the greatest” etc etc.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ohmigoodness…. what a VISUAL….I knew it was bad but… so much for “the greatest” etc etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura Flanders</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-350</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Flanders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 03:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-350</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Great new names.&lt;br /&gt;
I’ll announce on the show tomorrow!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe we can gear up a contest. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thanks.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great new names.<br />
I’ll announce on the show tomorrow!</p>
<p>Maybe we can gear up a contest. </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</title>
		<link>http://grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/comment-page-1/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk James Murphy, M.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 00:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.grittv.org/2008/06/30/the-f-word-so-much-for-alternative-energy/#comment-349</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;there are plenty of marginal agricultural private lands in the West - no longer utilized for agricultural production but already torn up beyond hope for restoration - that would be far more appropriate to develope alternative technologies than the rapidly diminishing wild places we have left.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;love that concept, begreen.  it would also help revitalize rural ag communities by bringing them the income from leases….&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>there are plenty of marginal agricultural private lands in the West &#8211; no longer utilized for agricultural production but already torn up beyond hope for restoration &#8211; that would be far more appropriate to develope alternative technologies than the rapidly diminishing wild places we have left.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>love that concept, begreen.  it would also help revitalize rural ag communities by bringing them the income from leases….</p>
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